E35. Make Your Ideas Irresistible with Tamsen Webster

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Francisco Mahfuz 0:00

Hi everyone, Francisco here. Just before we get started, I wanted to share something I'm really excited about. I recently launched the story powers bootcamp, a course that teaches you everything you need to know about how to find craft and tell stories that work. But it's not just an online course, because you get personalised feedback from me for all the practical activities in three hours of life coaching to work through any challenges, or focus on specific projects. So it's like if you bought a cookbook, but the chef came along with it. So go to story powers.com and click on Course, all the information you need will be there. So please check it out. And if you love the show, and would like to support us, you can go to buy me a coffee.com forward slash story powers. I drink about five coffees a day, so any support would be much appreciated. All right on with the show.

Welcome to the story powers podcast, the show about the power of stories that people would tell them and why you should be doing it too. I'm your host, keynote speaker and storytelling coach Francisco mahfuz. My guest today is Tamsin Webster. As a professional idea whisperer. Tamsin helps people find, build and tell the stories of their ideas. She combined 20 years in brand and mass strategy 13 years as a Weight Watchers leader, and for years as a TEDx executive producer to create the red thread, a simple way to change how people see and what they do as a result. Today, Tamsin is a global hoppin keynote speaker who consults with enterprise companies like Verizon Johnson and Johnson and State Street Bank on how to get their big ideas to have the impact they deserve. That biography misses one of the best things about Clemson the free notre podcast which she co host with her husband, Tom. This is hands down one of my all time favourite podcasts, but I can only recommend it with a warning while listening to terms and and Tom is great fun and definitely has taught me a lot about speaking and storytelling in mixing cocktails. It's also made me seriously question how good my marriage is. Ladies and gentlemen, the amazing Tamsin Webster Welcome to the show.

Tamsen Webster 2:19

Hi, lovely introduction. Thank you and thanks for being a listener to The Freenoter, we're gonna be starting up or a second season here pretty soon.

Francisco Mahfuz 2:27

Oh, thank God, because I because I was I got a bit behind. And then I I listened to I think four or five in the last in the last few days. And then I realised I only had like three more to go. And I thought oh, no, I hope that they haven't stopped going. No, we

Tamsen Webster 2:41

haven't. I mean, it was a as as many people are right now with a pandemic and all of that. You know, when it first happened, we were like, well, this is for people who speaking on stage, and there are no stages. So what do we do? So we took a pause. But now we have a giant list of things to talk about. So we're gonna get ready to get started up here again, probably later next month, I'd say

Francisco Mahfuz 3:06

the the marriage part of this is only half joke. I, this is the first I listen to the first couple of episodes. And and I was delighted. And I said to my wife, this is, um, this, this couple, they're just talking about stuff for an hour, and they just seem to having a lot of fun. Could we do that? And she's like, No.

Tamsen Webster 3:31

and I are very lucky to have kind of two overlapping rings have what we know and love and care about. And thankfully, they're not completely, you know, overlapping. I think that can create some issues as well. But they're overlapping just enough that we kind of know what each other does. There's certain things that we both do, like speak, and we obviously share a very similar sense of humour. So that helps as well.

Francisco Mahfuz 3:54

Yeah. And since since every episode, you guys, you have the cocktail of the week, and I've heard you talk about a tipsy talk before I thought we could have a Tips episode. So I'm already

Tamsen Webster 4:07

excellent. I support this. Yeah.

Francisco Mahfuz 4:10

The tipsy talk though. Can you just share what that is? I love that consumer.

Tamsen Webster 4:15

So a tipsy talk is what I what I call a talk that's full of lots and lots and lots and lots of great little tips, little nuggets, little things to do, like I mean, it's the it's the kind of talk that you've seen where people do it's 17 ways to do X or 50 things to do to make your business better. And audiences love those talks in the moment because they feel like you're getting a great return on your investment of your time because you're like, Oh, I got a list of 50 things. The problem is the human brain doesn't work that way and nobody remembers it really afterwards. So it's the kind of talk where people really love it the moment they get reviewed very, very well. And then afterwards, people usually are loved If they remember one or two of those ideas, and it's I would say even rarer for people to actually act on them, just simply because it's just too much. And you haven't made the case for any single idea in that you've just given people a whole bunch of things to do, but people don't like doing things. Honestly, when it comes down to it, they don't like to change. They don't like to do things differently. So

Francisco Mahfuz 5:22

they, I think you've called it tipsy because, you know, oh, it goes down goes down. Well,

Tamsen Webster 5:27

LeSean Yeah, forget it the next day, right? Just like a gypsy evening, where yeah,

Francisco Mahfuz 5:34

I'm not sure it says more about public speaking. What about our habits with alcohol?

Tamsen Webster 5:40

Well, I, you know, I, it's, it's always best to know your limits, which is why I suggest heartily against the, I mean, the tipsy talk has its place, there's times when that's the right thing to do. And if you're not, if you really, truly are just more interested in giving information than driving action, it's fine. And if you really want to get you know, some as long as you do it, well, of course, and like in the moment, oh my gosh, that was great. And so useful. Fine, but if your standard is okay, I don't just want to like wow, the crowd, I actually want to change them. There's, there's better ways to go, it's better to moderate your moderate the intake of the audience, let's put it that way.

Francisco Mahfuz 6:23

We probably should move away from the alcohol. I have a very good friend, Ian Gibbs. He calls himself the learnability. Man. And there's this stat that he refers to often that people when conferences, you know, they watch a whole bunch of talks all day long. And I think the average number of takeaways that most of them seem to to, to admit to later is something like two. Like there's two things, they remember two things they've actually taken away and done anything with. Which Which leads me to ask, you know, is, is the solution or the opposite of the tipsy talk? The big idea, red thread stock?

Tamsen Webster 7:06

Well, yes, that's my that's my argument. Absolutely. I mean, there's a lot of research that supports that. Well, one thing we know for sure, I know for sure, both by research and by experience is that people don't remember content, they remember ideas. And so think, for instance, you know, think of any great fable right. So things like the tortoise and the hare, which I know are very present in multiple cultures. So I feel relatively safe in bringing that one up. And in and in English, at least, the moral of that story is slow and steady wins the race, right? Because you've got a very fast hare who thinks he's got to win, you've got to slow tortoise and the hare because you so fast takes breaks. And the tortoise just kind of keeps going while the hare is taking it out. So tortoise wins unexpectedly. And we have this great idea. But we're note there that none of us remember exactly how that story was written. We remember what happens. Those are the ideas and we remember what it means the Slow and steady wins the race. And the same thing is very, very true of a talk. And it's why a tipsy talk is less effective, because it's too many ideas for people to remember. And so the alternative Yeah, and this is this is certainly the argument that I make. But it's also the the the thinking behind any great TEDx talk, I've spent a lot of time working with TEDx events, that it's about one big thing. And even if it's a workshop that you're teaching, there's really one big idea that it should all fit into, yeah, of course, you're going to be teaching, you know, smaller ideas, smaller concepts that all fit into that. But somebody should be able to walk away and says, say to somebody else, that's the test, they should be able to say to somebody else, this talk was about X, right? Or the big idea was why even if there was a lot of things in sub comp points and things like that, so France, for instance, someone should be able to walk away from a talk, you know, it's, you know, I would hope that somebody walks away from one of my talks and says, you know, the, this talk was about how in order to change behaviour, you don't change beliefs, you uphold them. Right, so, okay, and yeah, there's a lot of other common concepts in that. But that's the central idea of one of my talks is that, contrary to what we often do, you know, when you're trying to change behaviour, don't try to change people's beliefs. That's not going to work not quickly, not long term. So what can you do instead actually work within what their beliefs are? So? Yeah, I'm a big fan of one big idea, and then making sure that your points fit into that. Absolutely.

Francisco Mahfuz 9:54

I think I had heard one of your episodes, hit the cocktail bar me And then went to your website to try and figure out what the red thread was. And he didn't quite sink in, I think alcohol might have something to do with it. So would you mind just giving an overview of what the what I do remember where I was that the red thread is? You've used elements of story to put together a talk. But can you just talk us through briefly what they are.

Tamsen Webster 10:22

So the red thread is, is two things, but they're both the same thing. So let me explain what I mean by that. So the red thread in concept, I'm borrowing from a phrase and idiom that's typically associated with German, Swedish, nor, you know, northern European countries. And they use the red thread to talk about the central idea of something the love of logical progression of arguments, the thing that makes it all makes sense, you know, a theme, a through line, all of these things are what they used to talk about the red thread. And so in the context of what we were just talking about Francisco, the red thread is that idea that you're trying to get across that it is that central idea. And so more specifically, what I mean, so that's the one thing it's that central idea, more specifically, the way I describe it, it's the connection between a question that your audience has, and the answer that you're providing people have to see that connection, that red thread between, okay, I have this question, and you're telling me this is the answer. I see and agree with that connection, that red thread. That's me what that's what the red thread isn't really the there's this third level, which is the process that I've developed, which, as you noted, is based in story. That is how you find that connection between somebody's question and your idea as the answer.

Francisco Mahfuz 11:47

So that part I've gotten the alcohol hadn't impaired me. That bit I didn't get Yeah, so what couldn't I couldn't, didn't stick in my head when I looked at it that time at least was the actual steps. So so how you break them down when in in a talk?

Tamsen Webster 12:04

Yes, so Okay, um, this is part of my favourite part. Okay. So when it came to, you know, when I was trying to figure out the read, the whole reason why I came up with the red thread in the first place actually dates back to when I first started working with TEDx speakers seven years ago now. And I still do that work today. Still, I'm still with TEDx Cambridge, on the idea strategist. Now, I help the speakers make sure that their ideas are strong enough to build these talks on. And so in that role, and it's still the the folks that I still work with the most I was dealing with a lot of experts. These are scientists that are academics, these are researchers. And these are people who generally are not as comfortable as storytellers. And yet you and I both know Francisco as your, as your as your listeners, how powerful story is like, it's how we make sense of information. It's how we, it's how our brains are actually creating stories to make that connection, that red thread in our heads, there's like this thing happen. This is the result. And our brains create a story for why those two things are connected. So I was so I was like, Oh, how do I get these non quote, unquote, non storytellers to tell to put their information in a story like way? So I went looking for information on how to build stories. And I gotta tell ya, most of the stuff out there was just not useful, at least not to experts and business. Do

Francisco Mahfuz 13:34

you mean? Do you mean the hero's journey? Or?

Tamsen Webster 13:38

Oh my gosh, that's what Yes. So I could rant for days on the hero. Okay, a hero's journey. Yes, one of the most prominent forms of story that's out there, too. It's not the only form of story that's out there. So

Francisco Mahfuz 13:53

it's been among the missteps. And it's

Tamsen Webster 13:57

like it is common, it is common in every, but it's not the only one. Second, again, back to back to you, the folks that I was dealing with the experts, business people, you know, there's somewhere depending on whose format you follow, there's somewhere between seven and 12 steps to the hero's journey. And that's overwhelming for your average non storyteller. And so that was that was one of the things that drove me nuts was just like, okay, Hero's Journey is too complicated for most people, because it's not clear to them, like who's the protagonist, who's the mentor? What's my call to, you know, what's my call to act? What's my refusal of the call? What's my rising action? What's my falling action? It's just it's a

Francisco Mahfuz 14:38

lot it was the meeting with the Goddess.

Tamsen Webster 14:40

Oh my god. It's a lot right lay and and most people are like, I am just trying to figure out how to explain why mitochondria are important to health and disease. I don't know what the meeting with The Goddess is right? Like, it just doesn't translate. Now at the opposite end of storytelling. vise so it's called is like, well, it's you know, it's the the Aristotle, you know, set up conflict resolution three act structure, which by the way is still true and the red thread is based on except, again, the folks who are not natural storytellers or haven't spent time storytelling when you tell them well, create setup, create conflict create resolution, they're like, how, and so that's what it was really, that's, I just, I was really frustrated by that. And so what I started to realise was, you know, they were the kind of setup conflict resolution or three act structure, what it was asking people to do, essentially, was to fill in a blank, right? It was to say, Okay, well, here's what's happened in this this, like this section of the story, great. But it's actually really hard to figure out, you know, think of it like drawing a line well, but a line has a beginning point and an endpoint. And so that's what I started to look at, I started stopped looking at what's happening in the act in the setup, and what creates the what defines the starting and the end of the setup. Because if we could figure out that, then it became a lot easier to figure out what happens in between. So that's a lot of setup to tell you that, you know, because it doesn't matter whether you look at the endpoints or in between, you're still gonna end up with a structure of a story. And so I tried to do is find what were the key moments of a story that drove an action forward, first of all, second, how could I keep it simple enough that a non expert would feel comfortable with it? And third, how can I make sure there was elements that were in every type of story, not just the hero myth, but also we're in you know, war in love stories and rags to riches stories, and you know, all the other forms of stories that there are. And so the red thread, actually, so where does that come to it has five elements. So if we look at a story, the way I look at it is that a story really begins, there may be context, there may be some other stuff that happens. But the story really begins, the moment we discover what the main character wants. Sometimes that's revealed by the inciting incident, sometimes that's revealed by all these other elements that we know from Hero, the hero myth and other stuff. But what really starts the story is that once you start, once you realise that the the main character wants something, and doesn't have it, there's a discovery of a dead body. There's a there's a, there's a wish to be a Jedi pilot, right? There's a wish to be part of a family. There's a wish to be loved. Like, there's something that tells us, oh, they want that thing, and they don't have it. So the first piece of the red thread is I teach folks and as I build messages around it is to establish what it is that the audience wants. So yeah, you can tell this retroactively view but what did you want? But it's it's what is what is something that somebody wants? Like, what is that that's the first thing that starts the story. Now, the moment we step from Act Two, act one to act two, right, that we go from setup to conflict? Well, what has to happen in order for us to have the conflict is the conflict has to be introduced. So that's the second piece. So I call it the problem or the problem pair. But that's where you introduce a problem that the audience didn't know about before, that's getting in the way like, and that also always happens, like the story takes the next notch when not only to discover that the person doesn't have something that they want, something else happens that now makes it even more difficult for them to get that thing. And it's something that he didn't know was present when the when it started.

Francisco Mahfuz 18:43

So let me just let me just drill down on that one. So you call that the problem? Pair? Right? Yeah. Yep. So is it there is the problem you know, about in there is a real problem behind that one. It's something along those lines, isn't it?

Tamsen Webster 18:57

Yeah. So the problem pair is it's, it's related to that. Yeah. So the way that I define the problem pair, particularly when it comes to business, so if we're talking generally about story, then yeah, there could be the problem that people know about, and then the one that they don't, that could be it. When we're talking about using a story to articulate an idea, I find there's a very specific pair that's important. And that is what I call it's really a problem of perspective. So imagine that you know, that you've got a character, your audience, whatever, they've got this question, and they're looking out into the world, imagine it as a framed picture. Like that's their worldview, quite literally. And they're, as they're trying to answer this question for themselves. They're looking out into that picture. And as they're trying to find the answer that says for themselves, more often than not, if we think about how they're doing it, they are focused on one area or one aspect of the picture, right there that there's one place where they're looking for that answer. One way that they're looking for that answer. You know, for instance, if somebody is trying to improve productivity in their office, they may be focused more on efficiency. They're like, Okay, how do we get the our efficiency measures up? But what happens if you only focus on one aspect of a picture? Right? What happens to your Do you see the rest of it? Clearly? No. So what you really are trying to do in this problem, Paris to say, I see what you're seeing in the picture makes a tonne of sense. There's also this other thing in the picture, would you agree, just shift their focus? And, and the facts, just by opening up that, hey, there's another thing in the picture that either you haven't noticed or haven't been paying attention to, but you agree is there is usually enough to kind of just now all of a sudden either explain why they haven't gotten what they've gotten yet, or to kind of introduce new tension. So one of the ways that I often explain this whole these elements is actually through the lens of the story that gave the red thread of idiom, its name in the first place. And that's actually a Greek myth. It did my research on this and it comes, you know, people believe that it comes from the the myth of Theseus and the Minotaur, a labyrinth. And so in this case, so what is what is Theseus? One? Well, he's the son of the king of Athens. And so he wants and as long as the Minotaur survives, Athens is at risk, because they have to send their best and brightest. If they don't, Athens is going to get attacked. So he is trying to save his city. That's what he wants. He wants to kill the Minotaur. He knows that. And so he can save a city. That's the goal. Step one, the problem is introduced. So this problem pair is yes, he knows about the monitor, and people have been focused on the monitor. But what what really unlocked this, you know, what really allowed him to succeed ultimately, was the fact that you realise that it wasn't just the monitor, he had to fight, he actually had to fight the labyrinth, where the Minotaur was, because nobody had escaped the labyrinth. Nobody had escaped it, including the Minotaur couldn't get out. And so if you think about what he wants, as long as he even if he killed the Minotaur, but didn't get out of the labyrinth, he still wasn't going to be saving a city because he's the future king. So this problem pair is not it's you know, it's it's the Mate, it's the monster and the maze, right? That's the kind of problem pair there. Now the next thing that drives the story forward, so we've got a goal, what does the audience want, or the character want, we've got a problem, which is introducing something that they didn't know about or didn't think about before. Third major kind of movement forward and a story is in the middle of act two, right? It's the thing that forces the pivot towards act three, and most people call it the midpoint, or the climax or the point of no return. I prefer the term the moment of truth.

So I shorten that to the truth. This is a moment where the character has to make a choice, and they have to make a choice between what they want, what they know or believe to be true about the world and what they have done so far, and what they're doing so far. So back to Theseus wants to save a city. Most people have been focused on the mana you know, the monster and not the maze. But the truth the moment of truth is his realisation of if I don't get out of the maze, I haven't done it so that I the way I like to frame it is the the maze is just as important as the monster like that's the truth. That's the realisation like okay, and you see what happens if he wants to save a city and he believes that the maze is just as important well he can't only focus on the monster you see like there he has to do something different. So that truth that third piece folk for it forces a choice for your main character and stories the result of that truth determines whether or not this is a you know, a tragic or happy ending. Either they give up on what they want, and they don't get it and they don't get anything they don't get what they need sad ending they make they make no changes and they don't get what they want. Also a sad ending they get they do make a change, they're able to get what they want happy ending. And yeah, there are some times when they suddenly realise that what they wanted isn't necessary but they got something even better. Also happy ending but it all results from what what do they do after that truth? So we've got goal problem truth fourth piece is now the pivot to Okay What was that choice that they made? And so I call that the change because that's the change in thinking or behaviour. Theseus the change that was different from everybody else was to bring a tool for each task, right so much not just the monsters the maze, the maze is just as important so bring a tool for each task. And that's where an A an idea message like now you've made the connection. Okay, what is the audience want? That's the goal. We go through a problem we go through a truth and then you say, and this is why my idea my answer my product, my service is this it really represents this change in what we've been doing so far. And then the last piece is kind of the, the fulfilment of that right so that I call it The actions is like what are they actually do to make that change real. And then, you know, technically it, there's only really only five pieces. But I want you to think of it like I always find the red thread linearly, goal problem, truth change action. But what you're really doing at the end is kind of turning it back onto itself and tying it up like in a bow. So it creates a circle, because what you're really doing is you're looping back to the goal at the end, because you're checking in with the audience. And you're basically saying, hey, look, they this person wanted this, they got it. Yay. And even better, if you can say, hey, look, do you see this is this idea? I have answers your question, and gets you all of these other things as well. So go problem, choose Change Action. That's my simplified story structure that works pretty much for everything I've found so far.

Francisco Mahfuz 25:48

And when I can definitely see how that would apply very well to a TED talk. But but when you're doing say, for example, a longer talk like a keynote, we just cycle through that more than once.

Tamsen Webster 26:03

So it depends, I mean, I find, I find that a keynote, a book really has a central red thread, there still is it because that's how you get the single idea that all of this is about. And the way that you fill in in between is the same way that you would fill in with any kind of story really, which is the way that what I say to my clients, when I'm working with them on kind of turning a red thread into larger content is for each of those elements, ask yourself, what does the audience need to what do I need to show or tell the audience so that they'll understand and agree with that particular piece of the red thread? So, you know, oftentimes, we don't need to spend a huge amount of time on what somebody wants. But we sometimes we do need to kind of validate that that question is a good question. We need to acknowledge what they've what they what they already see is getting in the way we need to spend some time on the solutions they've tried and what has or hasn't worked. That all is, you know, good stuff to put in a talk to kind of get people to go Oh, yeah, actually, this is a really important point. You're right, the stuff I've been trying is not working, you really understand my world. What's going on, like, now they're interested is like, okay, so why isn't that stuff working? Well, then guess what, you've got a perfect setup at that point to introduce the problem. And then you do the same thing, what do I need to show or tell people to get them to understand and agree that this problem that as I've outlined, it, kind of this kind of dual focus, is in fact, the root of what's getting in the way. Same thing with the truth. Same thing with the change in actions, I kind of group those things together. Now, to your point, most, you know, most experienced storytellers know that within the act, that every act has a three act has a three part structure, and every part of that has a three. So you could go all Inception level, like as many like layers of red threads deep as you want. But at its simplest, it's really just saying, Okay, over the course of a keynote, what do I need to do? How much what's the information I need to give in order to make sure I land these points in that order? And, and what I find is that, you know, it takes a couple different shapes, you know, there's certain types of we're talking about talks. There's certain types of talks that actually spend most of their time just getting people to that to you, they spend most of their time really on kind of establishing that problem as the problem and getting them because sometimes people just like, oh, my gosh, I've never thought of it that way. And you have to do a lot of work to really make that case for people. And then that truth change action, really, it just happens in the last third or quarter of the talk, I suppose a call those a y type talk where what you're really trying to establish for people is, you have this question, here's why you don't have the answer yet. You know, the next type of talk is one, it's fairly balanced, I call it The what now talk, they know they have a problem. They kind of know the nature of it, but they're really not quite sure. Given that what to do now. So follows the same structure, go problem, truth. And then typically, it kind of pivots about halfway through to the truth, change and action, you're spending a little bit more time and high level telling them what the high level steps are. And then the final type of talk most common in workshop or breakout session, kind of talks I'd say is what I call a how type talk, which is probably pretty self explanatory. And that's one where they already are pretty much in agreement with why they've got the problem and what to do. And so the goal problem tooth change piece doesn't take a lot of time to set up. Maybe it's, you know, depending on the structure of let's say it's a 45 minute session, it could be you're only spending five or 10 minutes on that piece. And then the rest of it is actually on the actions themselves. How do you do this thing? So that can you know, show you know stretch and shrink it that way and with a book because I've helped a number of folks use this approach with their books. Basically, you figure out what's the what's the arc of the book? What's the red thread of the book, and then what you're doing is essentially linking together read the red threads of the chapters kind of this, you know, this, this chapter is to get you to this part, this chapter is to get you this part, this chapter gets you to this part, it's kind of like, planning out the multi leg stages of a journey, right? So if I'm trying to get I'm trying to get from London to Bordeaux, I have to take a number of different stages, like so the whole talk is about here's how to get from London to Burdo. But you know, or book is about that. But the chapters are like, Okay, step one, here's how we get out of London. Step two, here's how we get from England to France, like, Here's Step three, here's how we're going to get closer and closer to Bordeaux, etc. Does that help?

Francisco Mahfuz 30:50

Yeah, it does, it does. And I wanted to get more specific on some of the approach you take when you tell story. So I know that you have a strange taste for some of the stuff is your big. Lots of hygiene oriented stories. So I know the two of your big stories are the Ignace some of ice and the Florence Nightingale stories were to do with, you know, how people discovered how, you know, germs and infection kill people. And and so the first question on that is, well, first, do you actually rewrite them using the red thread sort of steps? Or do you just kind of tell it instinctively?

Tamsen Webster 31:33

No, I was, I would say five years ago, I was not a great storyteller. So and part of the reason why I did this deep dive into storytelling was that I was trying to solve my own problem, in addition to solving the problem on behalf of my clients, both TEDx speakers and others. Because it's, it's I think it's, I think there are people who naturally come to storytelling, or they, they they're exposed to it through their culture, or their family, or whatever, and they just kind of by osmosis, figure out how to tell great stories. My husband's a great example that also but you know, he didn't he, he was never taught how to tell stories. And yet he's got a master's degree in literature and taught rhetoric, right. So he's, there's, you know, you read that much you start to, I think, you just start to absorb the structure of great stories, you start to absorb how to do that. I just was never interested in that kind of thing until I needed to do it myself. And I was just like, how do I do this? And so I actually do, when I'm trying to tell a story, I do go back to the red thread and say, at the core, what am I How am I trying to set this up. So if you were to go back and listen to particularly how I tell you, and I separate those stories throughout that talk, so they kind of tell pieces, break them up, and then come together, but particularly the night and gal part of that story. I do this for both set of eyes at night and gal there's a point in each of those talks were actually revealed the red thread of both of those stories kind of in it. I said, What was he trying? What was he trying? What were they trying to do? They were trying to, you know, save the soldiers lives? What did they realise the problem was that, you know, with Nightingale, they were focused more on, the doctors were focused on saving lives, more than on spreading on stopping the spread of disease. And then, you know, the her truth that they realised was that, that the same action could do both. And therefore, she was trying to figure out how could she How could she get the doctors to figure that piece out? And the way she did it? Was she uphold upheld the rules that were already established? I mean, she quick answer, she had the doctors wash the nurses hands. So when I think about how do I tell a story? I do, I do structure it that way? I start with okay, what what is what is the? What did I want? Or what did somebody want? What is the how would I frame the their discovery of a deeper problem? What is that moment? What is that realisation that created that moment of truth? What did they do differently? How did they act on it? What was the result? And so it can start pretty. They can? So the first thing is it starts pretty uninteresting, right? Like it's just because it's that kind of structure. But as I as I say to folks, even even if you just retell a story, just following that structure, it will automatically a be more interesting and engaging then then how most people default to telling stories. So it's a great example, that a great storytelling colleague of mine gave and I love this. He introduced me to this guy one time and and he was like, you see that guy over there? He's like that guy. He has the most amazing story, is it but the first time he told it, it was terrible. I'm like, Oh, do well do tell like what happened. And he said, Well, alright, well, here's the story. He's like, as I tell it, and the way he went into it was to say hi. So this this guy's grandmother Like, you know, this was probably, you know, at this point, it was probably like, almost 100 years ago, you know, or basically, yeah, just about 100 years ago, the time he was telling me the story he's like, so it's about like 100 years ago, his family had saved up to take this cross this transatlantic trip on this on this ship, this amazing ship. And they had like, put their life savings into it. And they were super excited. And they were sit there on the ship. And the Day of the Day of the sailing, they put everything away into their cabins or whatever, they're walking around the ship parents, and the his granddaughter, who's at this point, a young child, and this man walks past them, and kind of like, does a double take and stops and any any, and he stops the parents and says, you know, excuse me, you may I may take a closer look at your daughter, and I'm like, what, who are you? And he's like, Oh, no, it's okay. I'm the, you know, on the on the doctor on the ship, I said, I and I really actually need to take a closer look at your daughter, because it looks to me like she might be suffering from scarlet fever. And, or have some of the initial pieces of it. And turns out, that actually was the case. And so what happens is, the doctor says, I'm sorry, you're, you're going to have to leave the ship, we cannot have you sail with your daughter in this condition, you know, don't worry, you're going to get your money back and all of that. And of course, they're gonna get off the ship. And they're heartbroken because this is what they always want to do. That, of course, is not the end of the story. Because their attitude to that ship change dramatically, when several days later the ship sank. Because the ship was, of course, the Titanic. The way the guy originally told the story was, hey, my grandmother was on the Titanic. And they found out about it like, and they kicked her off the ship before I could sail. And you see, just by flipping it, right, like just by flipping it, and that that, to me was such a dramatic thing. And so I always say I often say to my clients, and this is particularly true for, again, these experts that I tend to work with people who have been well trained in the academic presentation of knowledge, which is conclusion first defended, like when you do that with a story, you're basically like giving somebody a murder mystery book, and they open up to the first page. And it's like The Butler Did It. Like, do you want to keep reading that story? Probably not. Like it's, it would be an unusual way for a mystery to start. So you'd be like, Okay, let me go back and read this. But for most people, like that's not interesting, right? So it's just even by flipping the information of a story, just to make sure that you're putting the putting the pieces in the right order, it makes a big difference. So I get long way to answer your question. But yes, it's a definitely do write my stories that way.

Francisco Mahfuz 37:29

It's interesting. This example you just used about flipping it, because I have also seen you talk about how you normally tell the lesson of the story. So you don't want the audience trying to guess and getting the wrong lesson. And I recently had Sean Callahan from anecdote on the show. And Sean, one of the things he is incorporated his business storytelling over the years, because most most of authentic toters teach leaders how to tell stories in the business environment, not in presentations. And he says, it's what he calls the relevant statement, which is you give the point of the story before without giving the ending away. So you essentially give the last and you say, you know, sometimes it's just a small things that have a big impact. And then he tells the story, and then he doesn't add anything to the end of the story. So you still have the Ah, now I can see what you meant by that. So you're still getting all the joy of the discovery at the end. But you not kind of spending three minutes telling this random story that people haven't quite connected to, to business, right. So you know, what, why you why you're telling us this. And there's something else I heard you say that I thought it was just curious. But given how much you seem to hate the hero's journey that makes sense, which is he said, you know, you are not because everybody says you're not the hero of your story, the customer, you said is that you are the guide, and you said, you're not the guide, you might be a fellow traveller.

Tamsen Webster 38:55

That's right. I very much believe that. So it could be possible. I mean, let me let me be clear, because the work I very much respect the work of particularly, you know, of Nancy Duarte and Donald Miller, both of whose work is very well founded in excellent application, kind of those are the two best applications of the hero's journey, I think that are out there. And the thing is I what I try to do with my work is try to make it screw up proof, right? And what can happen, unfortunately, with the hero's journey, yeah, first thing is that people were like, we were the hero, we saved it. And nobody likes that because everybody wants to be the hero of their own story. So rule number one, of course, is you are not the main character unless you're literally telling the story about yourself. Second, I get the thinking behind No, you're the guide. And there are some times when you're trying to explain how something happened and you're like, Yeah, we played this role, but in the wrong hands that can oftentimes come across as being extraordinarily condescending to the person that you're talking to. And in my experience, and again, this is is not not my experience as a storyteller, this is my experiences as a as both a marketer and as a weightwatchers. Leader for all the years that I was doing it, we're really, you know, if I know one thing, it's about what works and doesn't to create internally motivated long term change. People do not like to feel stupid. And so the minute that you position yourself as smarter, more knowledgeable than somebody, even if you are, you have a higher risk of activating that kind of resistance to whatever it is that you have to say. And so this is why I feel like it's, it's when I'm talking with folks about again, right, you know, writing a book building a talk, creating sales messages, even this is about, hey, we are also interested in this answer to this question. Here's what we have discovered travelling this path with you and other people like you. Let us share that. So is it functionally very much the same as a guide? Yes, but I just find that frame of being I have this wisdom that I'm going to impart to you is a very different invokes a very different tone, then the frame. Have you got that question? I've got that question. Hey, let me show you what we figured out. Do you see how that works? Oh, okay. Was that your experience, too? Oh, yeah, it was, hey, is this does this make sense to you? Oh, it made sense to us to do you believe this. That's what we believe. Right? That kind of thing. It ends up being, again, for business environment. So this is, you know, applicable to your other guests as well. That ends up being a much more useful long term, because it's creates a strategic partnership right from the beginning, and not this. You know, I hear all the time from people in business or we're not vendors, we're strategic partners, well, then don't treat them. Like don't treat your audience like you're a vendor from the get go. Right? Because a partner isn't higher. A partner's equal. Right? You know, and

Francisco Mahfuz 42:05

a lesson I learned after my first divorce.

Tamsen Webster 42:09

Yes, first.

Francisco Mahfuz 42:11

Well, I only had the one so far. You know, you don't want to close the videos, you have no window to step away from for stories for a second. And can we talk about Becky?

Tamsen Webster 42:30

Yes, we can talk about Becky. Yes. I don't like Becky though. But yeah, we can talk about her.

Francisco Mahfuz 42:35

So if I understand it back, he is your stage Alter Ego?

Tamsen Webster 42:39

She's my bad stage Alter Ego. Yeah. So the way to describe so I think this is pretty common with a lot of folks particularly are their early days of getting in front of people and talking about things and being vulnerable. And whatever. It is very, it is a very uncomfortable position. To to be it right. I mean, we're humans are social animals, I'm not the first person to say this, like, we are not wired to have all the eyes looking at us, we are wired to be part of the group looking at something else. And so this was certainly true for me is that when, and I would say this is also something I've only really gotten better at, in the last five years. I definitely had like, my stage persona, which was not, not me, in a lot of ways. There was aspects of it, but it was like, I can just, I can even look at older videos, like I can look at videos, you know, I have a YouTube channel and I can look at videos from like the earliest ones. And I look at it, I'm like, Oh my gosh, that's like totally Becky on that one. Versus now versus where I feel like I'm a lot more like there's not, there's not, there's not a huge gap. I don't want there to be a very big gap between, like what you're experiencing talking to me right now and what it's like to see me on stage or what it's like to interact with me virtually, or to watch a video like I want that to I want that gap to be as small as possible. But it's hard. I mean, it's a conscious decision just to and it's a conscious practice constant still for me as well, to listen for the hallmarks of what I know Becky has has come out. And it's its tone of voice. It's, it's just how you say things. It's kind of like, well, this is what we're going to learn today. And I'm like, Oh my gosh, stop that that's like to hear that like, or it's just so serious and earnest. That was the word that I gave it when I started working with some, you know, with a couple different coaches that really helped me get past this. I was like, I just come across as so earnest, and not in a good way. Like it's just kind of like believe this. And frankly, one of the things that I that I actually was most useful for me to help myself was I was noticing how that when I was photographed on stage. I could tell Becky was there based on my expression, because better His expression was like super earnest, like, I wouldn't be smiling. I'd be like, you know, there would be this like furrow and my brow and I'd be like, you know, go listen, like it's important. And then like and so one of the things it was kind of an outside in type shift to that I'd started doing on stage was literally trying to feel my face. And I was just like you This is Becky face like stop the Becky face like, like, Don't make that face, Tamsin. Make sure that you are, you know, that you're that you're not just smiling to smile, but make sure that like, you're, you know, that you're not getting caught and that earnestness like, you know, like, it's not, it's not so serious, even if I'm talking about serious things, even I'm talking about things that I know a lot about or care a lot about. It's got to feel fun for people, right? So I don't mean like, you know, let me get up there and do comedy routine, but I would much rather there be kind of excitement, be the be the frame than earnest. And so really kind of making that shift to identify what I was actually more excited to talk about, you know, which does lead me to weird stories like Semmelweis and Nightingale, because I, you know, to me, took me a while where to actually even be comfortable telling stories about myself, it was actually much easier in the beginning of my storytelling journey, to tell other people's stories, it was easier for me to kind of take a story and figure out how to adapt it so that I was excited to tell it. So that process started from Yeah, so from kind of really just figuring out let me really identify like, what was the what was the problem? How do I again, name it this is I do this over and over. I was like, I don't want to be it's not Earnest. Earnest is good, but it's better if it's like excited, you know, how to and how do I do that? Okay, well, it starts for me with the content.

Francisco Mahfuz 46:54

I familiar with Moga. That, no? So mocha that is a guy who was there is a fairly big on Google was one of the early engineers, I think, and he wrote this book called solve for happy and the reason I'm mentioning him is because one of the things he talks about is how he he finds his brain is not very helpful. So he his brain comes with ideas that are just kind of stupid sometimes. In he calls his name his brain. Becky. Becky, shut up. This is not helpful. Mackey. Vacuum is that's my my, my brain, man.

Tamsen Webster 47:36

I love that. No, I mean, Becky Oh, Becky comes because my middle name is Rebecca. And I don't like it. And I you know, and Becky is like a version for me. It's a perfectly lovely name. I'm just not a Rebecca. And I am certainly not a Becky. And so being able to kind of externalise it and create that mental avatar actually made it a lot easier for me to kind of understand how to coach Becky, right? Because it was it was it was easier for me to be like, Oh, here's this failing and myself as well. Like, no, it's just Becky like, Okay, well, how do I how do I make? How do I make Becky more comfortable? Right? So that I can, like get her off? You know, in this case, like get her off seizure, but have her be something that that I'm happy to have on stage with me right rather than taking it over? Because it's not like I'm not that right. I I adore deep dives and things you can probably tell. I love figuring stuff out I love just under understanding like What the Why, what and how behind stuff. And by the way, I'm convinced that more people out there love that than they will admit to, because part of what I'm also trying to do when I get on stage. It's just I believe, I believe in leaving my audience feeling feeling even smarter than they walked in now because they're not smart already. But because people enjoy that feeling of feeling like they learned something useful feeling like they got let in on a secret of feeling like they have figured they've unlocked something for themselves. That was that was in their way. That's really empowering. And Becky got in the way of that because Becky was not a fellow traveller Becky didn't have faults, like Becky was not vulnerable. Right? And and nobody wants to, you know, there are those times in our lives where Yeah, you do want the kind of like guru from the mountaintop to say like this is the answer. But well, you're in the slog of it. Like you want somebody here like you get it right, you can turn to them and go, This sucks. And you agree that it sucks, right? And

Francisco Mahfuz 49:34

I think you don't want someone to guide guide splaining things to you.

Tamsen Webster 49:38

That's right. You don't right. You kind of and so this is this is definitely one of the fundamental philosophies underneath. All of my work is that you you can't create change. You can only create the conditions for it. You can't make someone do something long term. Can you make something do something short? Absolutely. I She's not to do that, again. Because that's externally driven, it's going to happen once they're going to not feel good about them or you. I don't think that solves for long term issues at all, particularly, you know, especially in business, but everywhere else, where we're trying to build those relationships. And I think really having that understanding that anytime that you are trying to tell a story, because stories follow that structure, because what they are doing is laying down the components, the pieces of code that your brain is looking for, to create a coherent connection of cause and effect. That's why That's why it's so important for us to understand how they work, right? And what we can what we can do. And when you're creating what that's what a story does, it kind of it shifts, like, step by step, it shifts the perspective, it starts with saying, you have this question? Oh, I have that question. How can I win a race? Okay, well, I'm looking out there out there. And I see that everybody's always focused on how fast you can go. But I think there's something else to pay attention to. And that's how long you can go. Right. And that, you know, if I believe that, as long as I you know, fit, you know, that it's important to me to finish the race my way, you know, so what I say, then, I'm going to run my own race. And you see, those are actually the concepts that sit underneath the tortoise and the hare. The reason why it resonates for us is because it gives us a new way to look at something through the metaphor through the analogy of a story. But if you understand that all it is is code, it is literally it's like source code in our brain, I use this analogy a lot like who we are, what we do, how we operate through the world, that's this external thing. It's like looking at a website and interacting with it, you know, you see that it's got a button here, and it's got these pictures on it. And it does this, that and the other thing, but that actually isn't the website, right? What's actually the website is the code that's telling those elements to do those things. And humans are the same way. And our code is story. And so if you can understand what your own code is, what was that story that you told yourself about your idea about why a particular story out in the world resonated for you, if you can figure out if you can open the window and see that source code of yourself, and then you can kind of and then you and then you can, what you what that allows you to do is kind of give you that piece of code, and allows you to put it out into the world so that it just gets immediately read by other people's code reading brains, right? You're able to just use that story to either put a new idea in somebody's head or rewrite one because their brains going, Oh, I recognise that code and they just accept, you know, it accepts it because it's familiar.

Francisco Mahfuz 52:53

What is the words? What is the word that you use the other episode? Meta Velcro.

Tamsen Webster 52:58

Meta Velcro? Yeah. That's right, because it's the thing on which like, it's, it's your point of view, it's the everything because your brain operates in this constant effort of what's the story here? Not what's a once upon a time story. But Why and how did this happen? The way that it did that your brain is constantly are trying to figure that out that your patterns for those stories create that worldview, and every other story that you live fits that kind of broader narrative. And so yeah, really what I find when I'm working with my clients, and I warn them about this, and they they listen, and they nod when I tell them in the beginning, and then at the end, they're like, oh, my gosh, that was so true. Is it one thing they don't you know, that kind of surprises them whenever I'm working with them is that even if they come to me saying, we want to figure out what our entire go to market message is, or we want, I want to establish what my platform is. Or even I want to I want to write a book, then then where we start is actually defining the message, that red thread for a very specific deliverable, let's say, Okay, we're going to write the back cover copy of your book, or we're going to write the we're going to draft like your first three minutes of conversation in front of investor, or we're going to write the about page that's like a various bit and they're like, Well, how are we going to how is that going to solve everything else? So because by doing that, you're actually forcing the code open, you start to see what that pattern is. And once you've found it once, it becomes much, much easier to find it over and over again. It's just it's super interesting. I obviously look to me, it's a giant puzzle every time and I love it because like I said, it's just these elements are always the same. They are, every story can be broken back down into those elements. And everything that you do at whether as an individual or an organisation can be retold through those elements. And they just work anytime you you know, I had a client one time, one time time say Tommy's a researcher at a major hospital here in Boston, he said, You know, it's like, it only took about 20 minutes like of us talking to each other. But at that moment, he's like, I knew I needed to start listening to you. Because after 20 minutes, you could explain my science better than I could. And I was like, I just put it in the format. And he's like, wow,

Francisco Mahfuz 55:18

there is something that I noticed a lot. It's kind of a parallel point to yours. Because I noticed a lot when, when I'm teaching people how to tell stories, or I'm helping them see why the stories they've told, worked, or didn't work. And then, you know, you talk about, you know, you need a time stamp, you need characters, you need people doing things, you need a sequence of events, you need some type of learning or unexpected surprise at the end. But you also need a moment you need it to be grounded in reality to be happening there. And then with very specific, identifiable things, and emotions. And when you show people this, this thing you just said, did all of that. Now, this other story that we just worked on, or that we just heard someone else, obviously doing group activities. It's very clearly that that didn't have that. And then when you compare, you know, corporate communication, it's, you know, we, we are aligning our priorities, because we are trying to achieve this deliverables. And it's like, that's not how a human being talks, you were spending too much time doing this. We should be spending more time doing that. And then we can do this thing, right talk like a person talks. And when the elements are there, it just works. But I think a lot of people just don't get why things don't work.

Tamsen Webster 56:32

Yeah, I mean, yeah, and that's one of the biggest things that I, you know, I, it's always a, it's always a thing that I'm trying to figure out when I'm talking with a client, because some clients care about the story structure that's underneath it. And some people just want to know how to do it, that's fine. I mean, and it was important to me to make sure that I can defend anything I do. I mean, one of the most popular tools that I use with people is something that I built called the conversational case. It's, you know, it's kind of my version of, you know, a Pixar pitch or the story spine or something like that. It's basically a framework. And every element in it is rooted in story. But for a lot of people, it's just a lot easier to just unconsciously activate their, their story brain and just fill in the blank. So when I'm talking with, they often want to know what questions so they can, what do they want to achieve? When looking for the answer they often focus on? Where's their attention more than on? Where should you do you think it is? Yet we can all agree it's true belief that leads to mono truth. That's why we decided to or our recommendation is change. Here's how we do that. Actions. And not only does that answer the question, and also gives you a free prize, right? So like, it just it you know, what's what's so interesting, when you said about using a diagnosis it, I use the red thread just as much as a diagnosis thing as well, because I spend a lot of time particularly clients that have worked with me before. It's very important for me that I actually teach them the process where people don't need me like my, you know, my point is like, you can do this, it's just on your own, but they do come back and like, can you just look at this one. And I it's constantly what I'm doing, if I'm understanding, if I'm trying to understand why a book or a talk or a blog post, or ad or whatever doesn't work, it's usually because one of those pieces is missing goal problem, choose Change your action, something's missing there, and or something's out of order. And yes, you can move things out of order. So again, people who are deep into story know that you can start in Act Three, as long as the elements of Act Three are in order, right? And you can kind of move those chunks around. So the way I explained is like, yeah, you can start with the change and the actions, but you still are gonna have to go back and explain at some point, why does that satisfy what somebody wants? And how does it work? In other words, the other acts, you still have to do it, but it's, it can be, it's just, it's one of the reasons why I'm so passionate about it. It's just it is, you know, the whole process for me of developing the red thread was a process for reverse engineering how my brain already worked. And I thought it was unique at the time, right? Like, oh, my God, my brain just does this thing. And then I was like, Oh, actually, once I understood the role of story, I was like, oh, but this is actually a universal template. It's a universal template for how we make things make sense. But what's still unique about it is that each of us fills in those blanks in a different way. And for the folks that I'm often working with, who are either trying to express why their ideas or their research is new or different, or their companies are new or different. That's enormously powerful. Because here you have a way to reveal truly why what you're doing is different. Not some made up thing that where you painted your cow purple, but like actually why it's different fundamentally, like from the roots, it's different. And at the same time, that same process Access allows you to talk to other people in a way that they will immediately understand why it's different. And, gosh, it's just what more could you ask for in in life than to have that a tool that is both of those things simultaneously. And whether it's the red thread format of it or not? I think it's why folks like you and I are so such big fans of stories, and story structure and what power it can have.

Francisco Mahfuz 1:00:27

You call it, you call it a code, I've often refer to it as, as you know, monkey software. And you know, the monkey software in our brains is not a market leader. It's the only game in town, as much as we might think that that we are unique. And I'm mindful of our time now, but I just want to touch on something you mentioned, when we were talking about Becky, I see myself doing I've seen myself to that, and I, you know, I never called it back here or anything like that. But what I've noticed, the reason I don't do it, as much as I used to do it in the past is for something that I think I've heard you say, which was the content fixes performance. And, and my feeling is that my stage persona is meet feeling comfortable. Like if I'm comfortable with my friends, and I'm talking, I look exactly the same way I look on stage for me to look that way on stage. I need to know my content code, there is not a doubt in my mind of one that it works. And it's good. But also, you know, what comes next? What does this say? So I don't I don't have to think it. I know what I'm saying. And then I get to be me, is the strange thing that people talk about being rehearsed or not being rehearsed. But to me is, if the content is 100% ingrained in my brain, I can shut that door in then sort of open the natural communication and natural behaviour in that key. Whereas if I don't, it seems like you're talking with the handbrake on. And then you're like, what, why am I talking this way? I don't I don't talk this way.

Tamsen Webster 1:02:07

Because I believe that yeah, I am. I'm pretty adamant about that, that the vast majority of times, we come at being better speakers, or having better present a better presence from the wrong end of the stick. Somebody delivery is what we noticed first, but it's actually what matters least, we're going to notice first this is someone feel confident, whatever. But somebody can be really, really uncomfortable. But if they're talking about something that you want to know the answer to, and you and you start to, like engage with what they're saying, and you you agree with how they see the world and all of that the delivery actually doesn't matter. It really doesn't, you will forgive an extraordinary amount of delivery if the content is useful. Now that said, better delivery is going to make it a lot easier for people to get that content. But Francisco, you're so right. And it's the reason why a lot of times people are like, well, I want to work a job, I'm like, I don't actually work, I don't actually do delivery coaching anymore, at least not cheaply. Because I you know, I'd like you can fix it so much from the content. Because if you if it's about something that you love, and if it's about something you are passionate about, and you believe it, and you have done the work to build that case for it that you know that that red thread is strong and solid. And it's built for it precisely for the people that you're trying to reach. You just go out there and you're like, I believe this and that there is nothing more powerful than that. And and what I you know, I've often said it, but passion Trumps Polish every time. And that starts with your content

Francisco Mahfuz 1:03:41

in the delivery, I think actually can work the other way around. Because if you work on delivery, but not enough, then you can come across as Hey, me, you know, you talk a bit like this. And it's very important that we come back if you come back, whereas if you if you come across and you look nervous because you know, there's 300 people in front of you. And it's a big, important moment for you. It's fine, you're nervous you care. Whereas if you come across like a bad actor in an afternoon soapy, then then it it becomes an issue. Whereas before you created an issue by travelling, trying to solve something no one really cared about. Whereas if you're just focused on the content, normally you're I mean, unless you're a super shy person that couldn't possibly ever get up in front of that many people and talk but I think for most people, I fully agree and I I put out a book earlier this year on on public speaking, and most of it is content. I did all of the content stuff before I did delivery and I actually had the delivery was like two paragraphs saying doesn't really matter. You know, your content, then you're done. That's it and then I left two blank pages and said, Okay, fine, I'll talk about delivery. Know, I don't know if we managed to stick to a red thread or if this ended up being a tipsy podcast episode. but I had fun. And I really appreciate your time today. Oh, it's

Tamsen Webster 1:05:05

my pleasure. And I would say that we actually did because it was, you know, we were exploring the question of, you know, how, what effect does having a story do on your content, your delivery and all of that, and we talked about that it's not so much the, the actually form of a story that matters. It's the function of it, that functions universal. And so when you use the story structure, I think everything we talked about that falls in that when you use story structure, you unlock the power of both content and delivery, and you're better at whatever you're trying to do. So I'd say we stuck to it,

Francisco Mahfuz 1:05:35

I should get more of my guests to summarise the episode. It saves me a lot of work. Well, where do Where do you want people to find you or your work other than the podcast that has to come back?

Tamsen Webster 1:05:49

Has? We've got it, we've got it sketched out, we are doing it. So I would say the best way to know about me and so is to sign up for my newsletter, Tamsin webster.com/newsletter. That's pretty straightforward. Oh,

Francisco Mahfuz 1:06:05

I'll link all of that in the show notes. Thank

Tamsen Webster 1:06:07

you. Um, the other thing is actually, you know, I mentioned that tool as we were going through, and so people can download that tool for free off my site, go to the go, or just go to the conversational case.com. And grab that tool and just get a kind of quick back of the envelope way to sketch out the the red thread of any message that you're trying to

Francisco Mahfuz 1:06:26

use your newsletter, by the way, because I started going through it, there's just so many, so many bloody things in there. Called check read later. And I can only do one every few weeks is because if I go through every single story you put in there, then that's all I'm doing all day. And you know, I've got some work to do and some

Tamsen Webster 1:06:48

didn't take. I didn't take a little bit of this month off. So you've got a little bit of time to catch up. But yeah, it's just there's a lot to there's a lot to talk about. Oh, and the swipe file. Yeah. So I think yeah, the I also took a break from that for the last couple of weeks. But those are fun, though. And your listeners are just like random stories and studies that I find as I'm kind of looking at other things, and I can't use them possibly use them all. So I just share them with everybody else.

Francisco Mahfuz 1:07:15

Enough. Well, once again, thank you very much for your time. It's been an absolute pleasure.

Tamsen Webster 1:07:20

It's great to talk to you, Francisco. Thanks for having me on.

Francisco Mahfuz 1:07:22

All right, everyone. Thanks for tuning in. Take care of yourselves. And until next time.

I hope you enjoy the show. And if you did, I'd love for you to subscribe and leave us a review or a rating on the Apple podcasts app. It's very easy. You open the app and find this show and scroll down a little and when you see the stars tap. I'd really appreciate it and it does help other people find this. And if you'd like to get in touch or find out more about what I do, reach out to me on LinkedIn or visit my website story powers.com